7th Street Shops- Ma and Pa Balance Post 28

 

Gem Models HO Maryland & Pennsylvania 28 (4-6-0) constructed 6 Dec. 1962, Tokyo Japan

In the past few posts I have discussed the tools, principles and a bit of the history about the balance of model steam locomotives. Hopefully, the reader has a better understanding of the importance of balance.

Model Railroading offers satisfaction from the simplest amusement of watching the wheels go 'round 'n' 'round to delving into the complexity of game play that we play called, "operation". It all hinges on one definitive feature - animation. At 7th Street Shops miniature locomotives are FIRST machines and then models; because, they must move. All of the rest of it doesn't really matter if they don't move. 

HOW they move is important to how they meet our expectations. Maybe the point isn't clear; if they don't meet our expectations, even mobility becomes frustrating and meaningless; and that will overshadow the enjoyment of our game. Watching the wheels go 'round 'n' 'round is much more enjoyable when a respectable train comes along with them. Pulling is important and balance of an engine is key to that function.

Without boiler weight engine is heavy to front

So. Let's do it.

In the photo (left) the open pole motor was replaced some years ago by a motor similar to the Can motor shown. The original motor weighs 1.5oz and the Can weighs 1oz with a 1/4oz flywheel attached. The engine (that part of a locomotive that generates the power to move) weighs 6.9oz without the boiler weight (seen on the scale). The overall balance of the model is rather heavy to the front as seen by the beam drop. The 2 axle pony truck, still in place, has very little weight to contribute to this. Note how far back the operational center of the driver coupling is on Ten-Wheeler types. Despite the long front end the weight still needs to bear evenly on each of the drivers. This certainly contributes to the type's tendency to be front heavy.

In this case, the three driver axles are spaced evenly apart; that makes it easier to see that the engine is on the beam's rocking axis. The model's relative center of balance is substantially ahead of the coupling's mid point. It took an extra ounce on the cab roof to balance the engine (below right).

Adding 1 oz to the cab roof balances the engine

Without any  added weight in or on the engine the locomotive struggled to pull even5 ounces up the 2 percent grade. 

This is a good place to point out that the engine pulls not just the weight of the train but that of the tender as well. This tender weighs 3.25oz. In action it contributes nothing to the pulling efficiency of the engine and plays no part in balance other than pull-down along with the rest of the train. Generally, there is no advantage to an over weighted tender in terms of electrical pick up; clean the truck tires (don't forget the bolsters pads either) and the track and electricity will flow to even a lightweight tender! However, as a light car at the front of the train it needs to have some weight so that the load does not pull it off of the track. The 3.25oz of this tender is just about right. If you remove weight and find that the tender derails when the locomotive is pulling, add back weight a little at a time until the problem is resolved. Any more is waste and robs the engine of pulling capacity.

Unweighted engine could not pull 15oz up 2%

 

I added 0.5oz to the cab roof. It took 1oz to balance the engine but I don't want perfect balance. To counter pull-down I left 0.5oz to the front. I still did not add any weight into the boiler. With this simple addition the locomotive pulls 10oz up the grade though with some slipping.

To establish the Tractive Effort of a locomotives I run the model as slow as it will go so that I can detect wheel slip. The "tonnage" is then defined at the greatest load before the wheels start to slip at slowest speed above stalling. Of course, slight undulations in the track may cause an occasional slip. If the model does stall bump up the voltage until it moves again - without slipping.

I finally installed the original boiler weight back into the engine and increased the cab weight to 1.75oz. The train weight was increased incrementally until it was over 22oz and the wheels started to slip more severely. At this point I was confident of a coarse of action that I'd wanted to do for this model.

I don't need a lot out of this or any of the Moore & Moore Lines motive power. The Ten Wheeler will probably never be expected to haul more than two or three smaller wooden passenger cars that only weigh 5 or 6oz each.

5/8" brass tube with turned brass caps

The M&ML cannot handle long trains and its longest (and only) passing track has just 33" of train capacity. The ruling grade on the M&ML is 2%. 

With these considerations I built a custom boiler weight that is greater in diameter yet shorter in length than the original. I was willing to give up a little weight in order to make room for electronics inside the boiler. It is a trademark of 7th Street Shops DCC installs that rarely are there more than 3 break away wires between the tender and the engine. Sometimes there are none.

The original boiler weight wasted a lot of room inside. It is less than 1/2" in diameter yet 1 3/4" long. Even so, it weighs 1.6oz - it is solid brass. The new weight is a 5/8" O.D. brass tube 1.2" long with turned end caps. It weights 1.25oz filled with buckshot. It fits the target location better and leaves plenty of room in the smoke box for a current storage device or even a small speaker plus the components for the headlamp.

The advantages of using buckshot in a tube is a degree of flexibility to fit the desired location and other components and considerations. An added plus is that there are no unsightly chunks of metal visible from track side. The trade-offs seem worth it.

I also added a smaller tube positioned inside the 5/8" tube to accept the saddle screw. The screw is long enough to pin the weight in place. The alignment of this "pocket" is marked on the end of the weight to aid in positioning the weight during assembly.

The mark indicates where the hole for the boiler screw is aligned

I gave up 3/10ths of an ounce in the boiler and a corresponding amount in the cab. The overall weight of the engine is now more than it was after the motor was replaced. But it is 3/4oz less than the greatest amount with the original boiler weight as I described above. So now how will this model perform with its newest configuration?

I'll tell you about it next time.

 

 

7th Street Shops: The Imbalancing Act - Post 27

Something happened in the late 1970s and 1980 that had a direct bearing on the topic of this post. Motor miniaturization advanced because high potency magnets that used rare earth materials became available. This allow significant reduction to all parts of the motors yet increased their efficiency. Model manufacturers realized the advantages of the new technology and began to use them.

The engine and beam are at balance with the small amount of weight added to the cab roof

Before Can motors, heavy open pole motors would have had a significant impact on model balance and of course, the motors of steam models are typically over the back axles. The worst condition of imbalance is for the rear drivers to carry more of the weight. I'm nearly convinced that the entire purpose of adding boiler weight to a brass model was to counter-balance the weight of the motor that was used.

By the time Can motors caught on there were already millions of brass models with open pole motors in the world. Many models already had worn out motors. But of course, brass models do not get throw away. Rather, they usually wind up in a closet tucked safely in their box. Sometimes they were fixed but the arrival of the new motors logically inspired many modelers to fix non-operating models. Then many more old motors were simply replaced because the "modern" types were demonstrably better.

When commercial DCC came along more old motors were replaced because they could easily spike several amps more than the decoders could handle. Conversely, the better Can motors typically operate at less than a few hundred milli-amps.

It's always a good idea to replace that old motor. They are inefficient to begin with but over time magnets tend to loose potency and of course, this only degrades motor performance further.

However, there is a caveat to replacing an original open pole motor with a smaller Can type. 

I have no information that would describe the in-house approach various manufacturers used to address balance of the models they produced but clearly most of them did. The best builders were very good at it. You can determine this for yourself if you have the tools and a model that hasn't already been been altered. But herein lies the problems. Set aside that the number of untouched models is dwindling; how do you actually determine engine balance? What tools - and where do you get them - do you need to do that? You might be able to diminish the issue with a lot of trial and error but without the tools and know how, your success will likely be a matter of luck

The manufacturer probably engineered the balance of a given model based on known data that included the weight of the motor. After the fact, when we replace that old motor we don't particularly have all of the data. But we can weight the two motors and find their differences. We will likely find that the old motor is 2 or 3 ounces heavier. What ever the difference, it will be displaced to the front axle when the new motor is installed. This isn't as serious as overburden of the rear axle since train pull-down will relieve some of that but it still robs the model of performance. 

What compounds the problem is that it isn't detected when the deed is done; unless the installer knows what to expect. There isn't an overt change in how the model runs. Rather, the issue distills into observation of the model over time and it is slowly realization; this model just doesn't pull quite as good as it use to... what happened? Then, as is often the case, the issue is further buried under the arbitrary addition of more weight. Folk, the laws of physics are immutable and they do not forgive.

Motor to left is typically replaced with the  can motor at top.

In the photo to the left the large open pole motor is readily replaced by the can motor (top). Another NWSL 2032D-9 is disassemble at right. That armature measures just 13mm in diameter and the total weighs is less than 1.5oz. The open pole motor weighs 3.6oz and has an armature nearly 18mm in diameter. The Can motor is more powerful but if it replaces the open pole motor more than two ounces would be improperly displaced. A motor's power becomes irrelevant if the drivers do not engage the rail tops.

The condition that is manifest in an unbalanced model is that one or more of the driver sets float. It is true that springs can also cause drivers to float; where they pass above the rails ineffective. What most often causes this condition however, is a model that is out of balance.

Model balance is not well understood by the hobby community. I took a model and the balance to a "new" local hobby shop to show the younger proprietor what the beam could do. It was quickly apparent none of what I shared with him was of any value. Nor was it certain he even understood the point. The "math" of my situation became very clear as I looked around at all the modern diesels in the store. Is the age of steam over in the hobby? Tractive balance of steam engines is of no real relevance to diesel traction and the coming generations of modelers are progressively less connected to that old railroad charm. The response to diesels traction issues (as well as shays and other shaft driven models)  is that blunt-instrument paradigm; add more weight wherever it will fit.

Unfortunately, this topic has always been obscure and digging into old magazines to find related discussions will bear that out. When discussions of poor pullers come up the general and relatively easy solution is "add more weight" - wherever it will fit. Adding weight indiscriminately can exacerbate a balance error. It can also create risk to motors, bearings, driver tires and perhaps other power train parts.

Yet, again, even if the modeler suspects a locomotive is out of balance how does he effectively identify the causes and arrive at the proper solutions? Does he even know what the factors are and where does he get the tools needed to accomplish all of this?

Beam is gauged to (lt. to rt.) O, S, On3 (not shown) HO and Sn3

As I described in the last post the rewards are clearly worth the effort to find practical solutions to this issue. Over the years I have gathered materials and thought about how they should be used. I quickly recognized that a rocking beam would be the best means to gauge balance.

I recently built the beam that you see here since I know of nothing commercially available. This tool is substantial in that it is heavy, rigid and smooth in operation. The beam itself is milled and calibrated and it is grooved for the gauges we service. The only thing that moves the beam (and only in a rocking motion) is any slight imbalance of weight.

Using the beam is relatively simple if all the principles are understood. The.entire primus is based on centering the driver coupling over the proper location of the beam's cross axis. A "driver coupling" is the joining of 2 or more axles by means of linking bars, or more commonly, side rods. What matters most to achieving balance of a model steamer are the two outboard axles (front and rear) and the exact mid point between them. Inboard axles are incidental to these 3 elements. It is the mid point between the two end axles that we must place exactly at the rocking axis of the beam.

Before the actual test is conducted we may remove lead and trailing trucks. They have little effect on the driver coupling itself because most of their weight is born by their own axles. Therefore, unless they are massive multi-axle trucks that would bear down on the beam itself, they probably won't significantly alter the balance on the drivers.

At this point loose pieces of weight are used to bring the engine into balance. In the title photo a few small weights can be seen on the cab roof. Weights should rest somewhere on the model itself. Placing them on the beam within the dimensions of the model is permissible but I prefer to place the weights directly onto the model as near to their mounting locations as I can determine. Certainly, weights should not be placed on the ends of the beam.

Buckshot is added to the cup a little at a time

The two places weight usually winds up are in the smoke box and in the cab roof.  Placing weight evenly over the driver coupling can achieve greater traction without too much impact on balance but that is not always easy to achieve. If the model is already balanced this is the only place that weight can be added "where ever it will fit", but the weight must be distributed evenly within the center-to- center limits of the coupling. Keep an eye on the balance.

I sometimes find a small measuring cup useful when seeking the point of balance. It is easy to add just a few bee-bees at a time since exact balance can be achieved in this way. Be careful however; buckshot and bee-bees are notorious escape artists and a bunch of tiny balls on the floor can be hazardous.

Once balance has been achieved I adjust the weight equation to lean 1/4 to 1/2 ounce to the front of the engine. Again, this goes to what happens when an engine pulls a train. There is a slight pull downward on the rear axle as the train weight takes affect on the engine; therefore tilting the weight slightly forward helps to counter that pull down. At this point I install the weight and test the improvements to the model's "Locomotive Tractive Effort" (LTE). 

If you suspect this is the reason some of your prized brass steamers are disappointing pullers and you don't want to do this yourself contact 7th Street Shops. We can help.

When we continue this discussion I will share a "live" example to demonstrate how adjusting balance improves performance.

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7th Street Shops: ? of Balance - Post 26

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Balance; this HO Pacific (Key Imports A.T.&S.F. 1226) is about to undergo a balancing act

Several years ago a client sent a P-B-L, S scale, narrow gauge K-36; similar to the model shown below. Among other cosmetic repairs he complained that the model did not pull well. His layout included a 2 percent grade helix where the model could only pull 8 freight cars to the top. This was disappointing as the K classes were the largest locomotives on  D.& R.G.W.narrow gauge and to this day they pull longer trains of similar cars up steeper grades on the Durango & Silverton R.R. 

 

The model did not meet his expectations. He had several of the 480 class big mikes and it is assumed they all did better than his 486.

 

The issue of model traction is a subject that I've studied for many years. On my Sn3 C&S layout I discovered that the small moguls and consolidations were unable to pull even a single brass passenger car up hill from Hess to Bath. Swallowing my own disappointment I defiantly decided I would come to a better conclusion than to just set those models on a shelf - as it seemed Overland thought little more of their product than that. I had several intertwining ideas about what to do but after the K-36 I began to realize a more deliberate approach to the problem. Unfortunately, I don't have the layout anymore nor do I have time to work my models. Instead I've set out to enhance our services to the benefit of our clients at 7th Street Shops.

Even this finely crafted P-B-L K-36  is subject to physics

 

Let's examine the issue a little closer. When a model doesn't pull well it seems the common assumption is that it lacks sufficient weight. But my experiences show time and again simply adding weight is more like  trying to pour a gallon of water into a 1 quart jar. When more weight is added to say, a four axle coupling and only 1 axle is actually pulling, adding weight is a waste and the issue is not addressed.

 

Most manufacturers add ample weight to their models. Adding more weight starts to burden the power train (motor, gears and mechanism). Too much weight increases wear on these parts and they may prematurely fail. The reality is that simply adding weight to a poor puller is likely not the correct answer.

The fundamental problem is that of floating drivers whereby one or more axles do not sufficiantly press their wheels onto the rail tops. Two factors cause floating drivers; incorrect springs and a driver coupling that is not properly balance. For this reason it should go without saying that this topic is generally exclusive to side rod steam locomotives. In other words, these issues rarely effects sidewinders, diesels and other models that depend upon powered or shafted trucks rather than reciprocating drivers.

We will discuss springs at another time (springs, not suspension). True driver coupling suspension is rarely found on production models).

 

You have to be pretty dedicated to properly determine the specifics of an imbalanced driver coupling. The determination process is a bit tedious but the real impediment is the availability of the tools required to investigate the state of balance.You cannot fix what you can't determine needs fixing.

 

You likely have noticed a few of my tools in the photos shared here. The beam seen in the title photo didn't come by UPS. It came out of our machine shop. Nor did it just happen. When I started I did not know what features it would need. This beam is the result of a developmental process. When I tested Patrick's K-36 I temporarily fastened a small diameter rod to the table top and attempted to balance a plate/beam over it. This arrangement was difficult to manage because it was very easy to move the plate and or rocker rod when the engine was set upon the plate. But I persisted and until I could determine that the engine was out of balance and which direction it was too heavy.

 

The second tool is a scale with some degree of accuracy. I already had a postal scale. While it can't be relied upon for gun powder accuracy or exact postage due for shipping it does quite well for this purpose.

 

There must also be some type of weighting material that offers both flexibility and the ability to attach it to the model. I have a box full of lead pieces that I use for this purpose. You will need material to be used to make the corrections permanent as well. 

 

I've mentioned our machine shop. The ability to make boiler weights is often a valuable asset. Of course, the average modeler may only have an occasional need to do this but when many models come thru the door - all in needing some type of attention - the need becomes apparent.

The last "tools" are more abstract; that of knowledge. I'm sure there is a cadre of experts out there (there always are) with this knowledge (which is why we see so much published on the matter) but frankly, very little is readily available and at times, what I see suggests that this knowledge is generally far from the average modelers purview. What I've learned is from hard earned experience and a few bits and pieces from old magazine that offered hints along the way.

I'll finish this post by sharing the rest of the story of my client's K-36. This will be enlightening.

I determined the model had come from the factory out of balance; there was no indication of any modifications. The boiler weight was soldered to the shell per usual so actually removing it would be very difficult. Therefore I cut away material where it was excessive and added weight until the model balanced on the makeshift beam. This attained the goal of equal pressure of all 8 drivers on the rails. What ever a steam locomotive can do with what ever weight available to it, equal pressure will maximize its tractive effort to that measure. This is the reason cramming lead into every nook and cranny is not usually necessary.

I returned the model to the client and when we talked on the phone some days later this is what he told me; "I don't know what you did to this model but where it could only pull 8 narrow gauge freight cars (in S scale they are roughly the same actual size as an HO 40' standard gauge car) it can now pull 18 cars up the same 2 percent grade on a curve!"

The K-36 experience has not been unique. With the proper tools and working knowledge the results are consistently that direct. After balancing the Sante Fe engine in the title photo above it is capable of pulling 12, 40' freight cars - 42oz (each weighing 3.5 oz) - up a 2 percent grade. The weight in the model was not increased or decreased from the factory; merely redistributed. The engine, itself  a medium  size, only weighs 13oz. The tender weighs 6 oz and is in addition to the 42oz. The effective pulling is determined at the point just before the drivers begin to slip. With slipping it can pull a few more cars.

 

HO (40' box) and Sn3 (30' box) cars are roughly the same size (6" L x 1.5" W x 2" H @ 3.5oz ea.)

 

We will continue this discussion in a future post.

Shifting Gears - 7th Street Shops Nuts & Bolts Post 25

Let's shift gears. Let's talk about 7th Street Shops operations. Generally, this blog is never going to be a "How To" center on how to do stuff. I may from time to time share some ideas about what we do but it isn't an objective to comprehensively teach anyone any of it. However, I've always intended to demonstrate results expressly for the purpose of establishing confidence in our services. This is also the place to discover more about our company as the last 2 dozen posts have hopefully demonstrated.

Art Lort's HOn3 K-27 (paint & lettering iirc) 2010

7th Street Shops will be 15 years old this summer. We started the business at the encouragement of a few fellow modelers in the Denver area after the technical field I was in dried up. 

By July 2009 I was pretty much out of money and was rather cornered financially. My good friend, Patrick Tillery, who happened to modeled D&RGW Sn3 (code for P-B-L),  encouraged me to customize and repair model locomotives - particularly his. I had already been doing that sporadically for a few friends around the metro area so he was quite confident in my ability and supplied numerous jobs for years thereafter. Thank you, Patrick! (Some of you may know him as one of the mail order guys at Caboose Hobbies and the remake of that famous store that took its place). Vicki built our first website, the stellar "7th Street Shops" with the classy C&S Freight Car Red and Teal theme and I announced our debut on the several chat groups I belonged to. Thus - BOOM! - things took off. 

Bob Axsom's Sn3 B-3b (paint and lettering) 2008

Being an Sn3 modeler myself we naturally got a lot of S scale business but we also had plenty of  HO, HOn3 and a few O and On3 jobs as well. Initially, most of the work centered around painting and DCC installation but we were already well equipped to work "under the hood". It wasn't long before our interactions with NorthWest Short Line (under new ownership) developed into a scheme to escape the high cost of Denver. We moved to Hamilton, Montana. That was where the new owners, Dave and Lynda Rygmyr, had move NWSL a few years earlier. We did this on our own nickel in September 2010 with the agreement to work as a non exclusive subcontractor to NWSL. We continued 7th Street Shops but spent part of the day at their location repairing what ever models came thru the door.

HOn3 Mason Bogies (L-R) Balboa & PFM Bruce Jackson - 2009

It was at this point that we began to develop some of our little quirks ("odd behavior" as one former client put it); peculiarities on how we conduct this business.

It wasn't long before it became clear there were some things we should never do. How did we know we should never do them? Because things never turned out well for us and, in fact, we have gotten stuck, repeatedly, and lost money in the process.

One of the first things we learned was that "plastic" equals "disposable". Plastic models are, for the most part, consumable "goods" and our view is that you are better off throwing them out when they break than to try and fix them. There is very limited opportunity to make money repairing plastic. Perhaps a more succinct way to describe this is that if the client can buy 2, 3 - half a dozen - of the same model you are repairing you probably should decline the project. We learned that lesson fairly hard and fairly quickly! 7th Street Shops takes a very limited scope of plastic and die cast models.

Penny's S2 - HO (Paint, Weather, DCC Sound) Kevin Barr 2010

We also found that HOn3 brass was a losing proposition. It appears that, to a certain portion of the hobby community, smaller is cheaper (easier) to fix. After all, that's why the importers of HOn3 brass didn't charge as much for those smaller models... right? Wrong! There are many more HOn3 modelers that S and O scale modelers and even less of those who model narrow gauge in those scales. Therefore the importers of HO narrow gauge could spread costs over many more copies of a model and still make a profit. Larger, not so difficult to manufacture scale models must nevertheless carry the costs of production in fewer copies.

There is also an apparent equation of "thrift" to HOn3. This misconception seems to sway certain modeler who want it all for less. Of course, not every modeler of 1/87th scale narrow gauge has this mentality but compared to other scales a disproportionate number do. Smaller is not cheaper and it certainly is NOT easier to fix. In the heyday of HOn3 brass the builders were very proprietary. They had to be in order to fit the oversized technology into models with very limited internal space (in order that it might at least act like it ran). This required a bit of innovation on their part and a fist full of non standard headaches on ours. In many cases the otherwise typically replaceable parts simply did not exist. Then the option was to find exact replacement parts (by robbing another like model) or inventing your own equally proprietary version of the mechanism - which would cost a lot more than simply finding another running model.

2 HO GN O-1s (Power, Paint, Weather, DCC Sound) Kennedy 2011

We DO NOT work on HOn3 anything... not even for "fun".

Speaking of fun, we do not do this business for fun. It is true much of it does have an element" of fun" about it. But we are in business to make money ("oddly" enough). I realized a long time ago that model railroad customizing and repair is not an end to itself. If we cannot make enough money to make this JOB worth our effort then we will not do it. Yet there is an apparent misconception about that as well.

No! NO! NO! NO!! Plastic HO Bowker - 2011

One evening I got a call from a potential client who became rather disconcerted at the idea that we would charge him a lot of money for what he wanted us to do. He rebuffed with the argument that because we were having fun (his own assumption) we should not charge so much. Apparently fun is its own reward. I kindly refused to take his work and hung up.

Below is a list of the few plastic (or die cast) models we will accept at 7th Street Shops for certain tasks.

 

HO U.S.Military Railroad (custom painted and lettered ) everyone of them BRASS - Phillip Villanova 2010

Die Cast. HO; MDC Box Cab (Stanton Drives) and Shay (regearing). S scale; Rex Models.

Plastic. HO Bachmann Shay (truck regearing only). On30 Bachmann Shay, Rail Bus and Rail Truck (regearing only).

Link to 7th Street Shops; www.7thstreetgroups.com

 

 

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Pictorial Suppilment to Cinder Car - Post 24

 

The uncommon view; St. Charles 1897 coal car frame and all St. Charles built cars 1897-1900

 

 

 

Not a lot of reading this time; details of the model are the focus. In the old days, you read articles like this on a printed page. The photos were printed and the resolution  (called screening) were immutable. You could not blow them up. The photos shown here were shot on 4"x 5" film whereby "resolution" is called grain. This makes the photos many times denser in terms of grain than say 35mm film; of the old days. In other words, you can enlarge the prints much bigger before graininess is apparent. I can crop a very small portion of the negative and still blow it up many times greater without loosing much detail to grain.

 

I have just one request of those who have read and followed this series; Build Your Own Car! Model railroading is a multifaceted hobby. But at its core is the craft of doing! Build.

 

 

Detailed layout of the 8"x8" N.Y. Air Brake system

 

The "B" end of the car

 End beam details including brake retainer valve

 

Detail of the inside cross brace

 

The "A" side of the car

 

Detail reflecting the original car where side stales had been attached

 

 

 

Model assumed the coal was re lettered C&S prior to conversion

The frames of the cars were not rebuilt; only the boxes were revised and a false floor installed. This is indicated in the model by bolt holes in the side sills for now removed side stakes. The model was reflective of how it may have looked in 1903.

 

 

Note lettering, ship-lap flooring and hinge/dog

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3D model 1897 coal, 3D printed for The Cimarron Works, 2009

 

Ready....

Set...

 

Assemble!

 

There is no better way to understand something than to take it apart and put it together yourself...

 

Making with your hands is thinking.

Model of On3 C&S cinder car 04085 - Post 23

Colorado & Southern 3 foot gauge 04085 scratch-built in 1/4" scale, spring 1990

It's been 34 years since I built this car and I sold it in 1996 along with all of my On3 collection. I am grateful that I had the foresight - or perhaps divine inspiration - to photograph most of the models before hand. It all happened rather quickly and I simply stepped out of the hobby for good, I thought. My collection of railroad paraphernalia and books went to a number of folk but most of the models went to my friend, Doug Heitkamp. He in turned brokered them at shows and events. I've seen a number of the freight cars since but I have never seen this car, the flanger or outfit car.

The model was just under 8" long. It represents the car in 1903

I've already related that I recalled the inspiration for this project came about  but remembering how I built it is still foggy so I pulled out the August 1991 issue of Model Railroader and reviewed the rather general description of the car's construction. I'll leave most of that to anyone compelled enough to find that magazine.

The article includes the drawing of the prototype that I created from the parent of the drawing I'd already created in Nov 1988. MR required a specific style of drawing that was developed by J. Harold Geissel. I did this by tracing the 1988 drawing and submitting that along with photos and text but I also made a Mylar copy of the article drawing for my own records. I still have that too.

The original (parent) drawing is included in the C&S Connection. All 10 of the plan sets are still available as one collection from 7th Street Shops. The individual sets are not sold  separately. Contact us through our website www.7thstreetgroups.com to request the price or order the set. You can be sure the drawings are far more detailed and informative than the MR drawing.

The dump doors were fully functioning

O scale masters in brass and a casting

Only the brake gear did not work on the model

At the time I built the On3 model I was developing 1/4" scale product for C&S freight equipment. I built the masters in brass, then sent them to Jim Haggard of Builders In Scale to make molds and cast them in white metal.

The photo above left shows the brass masters for the bolsters and striker blocks that were used to build this car and other cars I built where they were appropriate. They belong on all of the St. Charles car types that were built for the UPD&G or C&S. In the background of the photo are a pair of Rigid style trucks along with double plate bolsters in S scale. The trucks were produced by The Cimarron Works and are now sold thru Precision Scale Vintage. All of these were the result of long hours I spent researching, drafting, and building models.

The hinges and dogs (or hinged/dogs) for the swing doors of the Cinder car were made up of 20 plus separate pieces of brass all soldered together and then assembled to the car. The trucks were offered by Portland Products and are no longer available. (There may be The Back Shop versions available from Keith Wiseman.) These were very nice brass castings that were fully sprung. I use3d them on many of the models I built where those trucks were appropriate. The brake rigging of this model was fully in place and could have actually bound the wheels if I had taken the time to make them operable. Nearly all of the detailing parts were available at the time and I tried to use brass and solder every place that I could. 

Underside detail was complete and accurate to the prototype

On the other hand, I cut the wood parts as close to exact historical sizes as I could get using a small hobby saw and a block of  basswood. Typically, I used commercial lumber cut for other scales and often these were very close to matching prototypical lumber sizes. But not this car. By early 1990 I had been cutting much of my own (scale) lumber anyway because there was very little available with the kinds of compound cuts found on wooden cars; such as ship-lapping for floor boards. Therefore I had already developed a bit of skill in this regard.

C&S Freight Car Color found in 1006

I assemble the car and painted it in a faded version of C&S freight Red. At the time my formula was 1 parts Floquil Box Car Red and 2 parts Caboose Red.

Bench in the caboose with red paint under the lid

In 2010 just before Vicki and I moved to Montana Fred Hutchison and I went to Silver Plume to photograph and measure C&S 1006, the caboose on display there. We found someone who could let us into the interior. While snapping shots and measuring I happened to lift the lid of the bench and discovered that there was old paint underneath.There is no way of knowing when it had been applied but it is possibly it had been there since 1908 when the cars were rebuilt and modernized to a Common Standard. From that bench paint I have formulated perhaps a more accurate C&S freight color that I use today.

Again, how I painted the Cinder car is described in the MR article. It was all done with a Badger 100 airbrush and Floquil colors. This included the weathering. Into my C&S Freight color I mix a few drops of Foundation to fade the red a little and there was some weathered black involved to dirty up the car.

Best of Show, 1990 Rocky Mountain NMRA

When I finished the car the 1990 NMRA Rocky Mountain Regional Convention was still ahead later that summer. It was a wonderful time and the first time I met long time friend Harry Brunk. I entered 04085 in the contest. At the end of the event (this was the first NMRA  convention I had attended) my then wife came up from Colorado Springs to attend the awards ceremony. 

As we sat together I became more and more anxious. I had invested an enormous amount of time into that model and felt it was a good job but I didn't know what to expect of it. I had won contests before but they were all popular vote. Of course this contest was different because it was actually judged by people who had a great deal of merit. Furthermore the car was of an obscure prototype and I didn't know if that would have any bearing on the judging. I expected the car to do something.

Merit, Plaque and Ribbon details

There was an incalculable amount of time just researching the prototype cars involved in creating the model. There was the culmination of information translated into detailed drawings.There was the gathering of parts - even creation of parts not commercially available. I am, to this day certain, there was no other model of this prototype before this model - let alone knowledge to the extent that a model could have been accurately built until all of this effort had been invested.

You may then imagine as each category came and went without mention of 04085 what I was starting to think.

Then as the last award came up - Best of Show - (I didn't even know there was such an award) they began describing from a point of detail and craftsmanship, a model that missed a perfect score by only a few points - and that because of a few commercial parts.The winning model of the show was the C&S Cinder car.

OMI U.P. Caboose donated by Caboose Hobbies

I don't have the model anymore. I hope it is in a glass case somewhere. But I still have the satisfaction that it inspired many models, a few manufacturers and one importer.

The trophy came from Caboose Hobbies of Denver. They mounted an Overland Models HO brass caboose on it and an engraved plaque. Many years later I had 7th Street Shops paint the model in the proper Union Pacific livery, add real glass to the windows, Proto-87 wheels to the trucks and completed it with Sergent couplers.

 

 

 

 

About C&S narrow gauge cinder cars - Post 22

 In his discussion "C&S Cinder Cars" Hol Wagner Jr. wrote;

  "In May 1900 the C&S, then still occupying the UP’s 40th Street shops in Denver, converted three of the railroad’s 4000 series narrow gauge coal cars, built for the UPD&G in 1897-98, into side dump cars. ...    "Sometime during the fall of 1900,.. the C&S was approached by a potential customer in Leadville with a proposition that would result in a revenue-producing use for the cars, and soon the conversion of five additional cars.  

Reports from Leadville’s Carbonate Weekly Chronicle:

December 3, 1900:  “The new shaft of the Cloud City company ... is on Lot 1, Block 29, Stevens and Leiter’s addition, at 310 Hemlock street..." [This was four blocks south of the C&S passenger depot and just west of the C&S tracks - Hol]
December 10, 1900:  “A new feature in Leadville mining is the proposition of the Cloud City Mining company to ship all their waste out of the city to be dumped... Arrangements for the transportation of such material is [sic] often made with the railroads at little or no cost to the miners, as the dirt is used to strengthen the grades.”
January 28, 1901:  “... A trestle is run to the railroad, about fifty feet distant, and all the waste dumped into railroad cars and hauled away...
March 4, 1901: “...  The Colorado and Southern people say they have places for tens of thousands of cars of dirt, and the reason they can haul it away for practically nothing is that they are thus saved the expense of employing men to load the cars.  The gondolas in use are all of an entirely new pattern...
July 22, 1901:  “The Penrose (another mine nearby) has adopted the system of hauling away its waste that was found to work so successfully in the case of the Cloud City... "

"And so, at the end of 1901, two mines in downtown Leadville were utilizing the six dump cars then available, and two more cars would be added to the small fleet in April 1902.  By 1905, however, when a ninth car was added, their revenue producing days would be over and the group would revert to cinder and other company service under a new set of numbers: 0100-0108...." Hol Wagner Jr.

Note: click the link to see a map that shows the lot described as the location of the shaft 310 Hemlock Street Leadville CO - Search (bing.com)

At C&S Freight Depot south down what would be Hemlock St

Many years ago, someone - perhaps Hol - sent me an electronic copy photo of a standard gauge side dump car. It was not a C&S car and it was not of a post 19th century vintage. Unfortunately I have not been able to find that file; yet I recall that the car was strikingly similar to the C&Sng side dump cars.  

[The direction of the two views at right  are southerly, toward the locations of the Penrose and the Cloud City Mining Co. mine. That mine I've not been able to identify by name but may have been the Bison.

In the upper view, the C&S depot was behind the buildings at the end of the track from the lower left corner of the photo. Hemlock St. was on the other side of the Freight Depot.

At C&S Leadville Depot S.E across what would be Hazel St

In the lower photo the R.O.W. of Hazel St. was under the freight cars. The R.O.W. of Alder St., which was one block east of Hazel, passed through the location of the Penrose mine; about 4 blocks south of the Depot. This was looking up Lost Horse Gulch and the ridge in background of both photos was Carbonate Hill. The mine head behind the pole may have been the Wolftone.]

 "Why would the railroad take nearly new cars and convert them to non revenue service?"

Let us not assume that "side dump car" necessarily meant "cinder car". The railroad listed both dump and cinder cars for their standard gauge (C&Ssg). There were 6 cars prior to 1904 numbered 036 - 041. But neither narrow gauge (C&Sng) dump nor cinder cars appeared in the nationally published "Official Railway Equipment Register" (O.R.E.R.) monthly until late in 1904 - after the ng dump cars were numbered 0100-0107.

Non revenue (outfit) cars were nearly always derived from older, less capable units that may have been nearly worn out and that were often about to be replaced. In particular, the Peninsular cars were 15 years old with an inferior load limited of 40000lbs. They were still in fair shape but not as capable as the 2 - 3 year old St Charles coals with 50000lbs capacity. Surely the Peninsular cars would have been plenty capable to haul cinders. The new cars were used because they had a superior capacity; perhaps well more than cinder cars would have required.

We may not recognize the details of the railroad's logic but it isn't an unreasonable idea. Well, sure. But. There was that pesky zero that assigned them to the Maintenance of Way department. Why?! To answer that, we need a reasonable explanation with a fair certainty of actual circumstance.

Perhaps by examining the key points of the 1900 -1901 Carbonate Weekly Chronicle we may find a hint or two. First, only 3 cars were converted in 1900. This seems a relatively low expectation for what ever the purpose the cars were intended

Next, the Carbonate Weekly Chronicle reported that the Cloud City Mining Co. approached the railroad 7 months after the 3 cars were converted. The report implies the mining company implored of the C&S - and that may be true - but how coincidental is it that the C&S already had 3 cars on hand? Is it possible the railroad was the true initiator of the general idea described by the newspaper? Perhaps the Cloud City Mining Co. adopted the idea after some promulgation on the part of the Railroad?

We further see that not only was the railroad willing to haul this waste material away at a minimal fee but that they would put it to use. In fact, it seemed to be a selling point on behalf of the railroad with perhaps veiled hopes more mining companies would subscribe to the service.

When one spends hundreds of hours reading through old railroad documents it is difficult to miss the impression that they never let a single penny slip away; the C&Sng needed that waste material. The newspaper more or less quoted the railroad as much; "The Colorado and Southern people say they have places for tens of thousands of cars of dirt". Profit enough, as it were.

But wasn't the railroad already mostly built? Mostly.

When the Denver South Park & Pacific built the road in the 1880s they were naturally in a hurry to reach the great mining camps of Colorado. To expedite their efforts hundreds of trestles were built. Trestles were ideal for this kind bee-lining railroad construction through rough terrain (especially covered in timber). They were quick to build and relatively cheap. On the other hand, they were not so much durable. They needed a lot of upkeep and they were vulnerable to fires. 

Mountain railroading involved a lot of cuts and fills and there were many places where there was more filling required than cutting made available. However, the demand for filling a trestle did not exclude it from being used; the railroads often took their time about filling. After all, the train didn't fall down just because bents and cross members were exposed. Not surprisingly, it could take years to fill a trestle.

Cut at Windy Point near Breckenridge CO

What might cause that to happen? Tactically speaking, lack of fill material. But there were other, perhaps more strategic reason. For instance, between 1883 and 1893 the South Park and subsequent companies were owned or controlled by the Union Pacific. The U.P. was notorious for taking a lot out of a subsidiary but not imputing so much to improving it. Filling trestles may not have been a pressing issue in those days.

Then the railroads collectively went into receivership where only the bare minimum would have been attended. What happened at the close of 1898 was that Colorado's dearest home grown railroad finally came home. It was once again "The Colorado Road" and Frank Trumble (receiver and president) and company were determined to live up to that name. Therefore it is not improbable that all of those half dressed trestles and other R.O.W. issues had to be addressed!

 This trestle was being filled in the mid 1880s near Climax CO.

The Cinder cars were not cinder cars - not at first. They were property improvement tools - outfit cars, they called them - and when the heads of the road noted all of that "fill" material piled up around mines and homes it is not unreasonable that they saw a ready source of material they needed to finish the grade. Nor can we dismiss their awareness of the applicability of side dump cars for this project.

Of course, a documented narrative of what I postulate has not been found; not to my knowledge. 

This all happened in less than 2 year2. By the end of 1902 it seems the partnership with the mines petered out. We only know of 2 mines that disposed of tailing material in the fashion described here. Perhaps misfortunes befell the mines that the railroad serviced. Perhaps the Railroad accomplished its improvement and no longer offered the service economically. In which case, where would the waste rock have been shipped too - an increase in cost notwithstanding? 

For whatever reason, after 1902, when the last 2 cars were converted they were all returned to non-revenue service. In support of this logic are the notations in the 1899 Renumbering Schedule that stated the 1902 cars (04003, 04019) were built for the great South Park division point, Como. They were the last modern ng cars rebuilt as cinder cars for many years. In 1905 the railroad added one more car and interestingly it was an old inherited car that was second rate in capacity. This would make sense as cinders don't weight as much as hard rock tailings. 

C&S Cinder Car 0206 at Como in 1931

In 1908 the Chicago Burlington & Quincey acquired the C&S. This adoption brought the railroad into association with the CB&Q's Black Hills narrow gauge line. In 1911, the "Q" inquired of the C&S about available coal cars for use in the Black Hills. They needed ore cars with "dump" capability. The C&S responded with 50 coals that had been built in 1907 - '08. The "Q" leased the cars and paid for the conversions of 4 dumps door per side and sloped floors similar to the 0100 series.

However, by 1916, 10 of the cars were returned to Denver and 9 of those were numbered 2000 - 2008. The "Q" apparently bought 15 of the cars outright but the rest may have been sold to an equipment broker. The 9 cars that were numbered 2000 - 2008 were renumbered 0200 - 0209 in 1920.

Como 1936; on right a 0100 series perhaps next to a 0200 series

Generally, little information has been found about the 0100 series cars, especially later into the 20th century. The most notable news of the cars came as the end of narrow gauge operations approached. All nine of the 0100 series cars survived until 1936. In Nov. of that year 0103 was destroyed at Climax; presumably in a wreck. In 1938, after the R.O.W. was torn up across the South Park, all of the remaining cars were scrapped except 0104. It wasn't until 1943 when the Leadville to Climax line was standard gauged that this last cinder car was finally dismantled. It was built by St. Charles prior to June 1898. In Aug. 1943 it was 45 years old. 

Many of the narrow gauge freight cars were sold (or surrendered) to other companies. Most of these have been disposed of but a small number still remain. Several old survivors have made their way to the South Park Rail Society at Como, Colorado. That includes the 1902 coal car, 4319.  The Society has nicely restored the car with some of the parts from reproductions. 

But when 0104 was scrapped it was among the very oldest cars on the line.

4319 at Black Hawk 1987. Currently at South Park Rail Society

Hol Wagner Jr.'s contribution to the history of this railroad must be honored. His electronic book "C&S - the first 10 years" is the accomplishment of a lifetime. I once printed most of it - as it was still in progress - and it stood over 2' tall (printed one side). Hol's commitment included years of sitting in the midst of dusty railroad records at the Colorado Railroad Museum reading original records and typing the enormous manuscript. 

Of course, Hol's contributions are not the only sources I have... most of the old guard have been gone a long time. But I remember who they were.